These days one of the main reasons I have facebook is to keep in touch with Oldhammer people. Personally I prefer the forum and, of course, seeing other people's blogs - but especially in these days of lockdown there's a comfort in seeing all the cool things people have painted pop up on my screen. My ambivalence about facebook partly stems from the frustrating time I had as a moderator for the Oldhammer community, and the rather poor job I did there (mea culpa), but also from the fact that in a group of 12,500 members, with varying levels of engagement and interest, it's pretty much impossible to keep a sense of oldhammer as a creative project rather than just being "old minis".
One consequence of this is the frequent ritual of someone posting "What is Oldhammer?", a debate which rolls back and forth along predictable lines before getting locked or deleted. However, this weekend there was a rather interesting twist on the theme - a post that triggered a "What is Oldhammer?" proxy war without even posing the question.
The backstory seems straightforward enough - someone on a different facebook group bought a lot of early 90s Tyranids and is pondering how they might convert them for use in AoS. News of this was posted on the Oldhammer Community group, possibly with the mischievous idea that it would get some interesting reactions! And so it proved.
The vast majority of reactions (generally in the form of memes or "heresy detected" jokes) seemed aghast that anybody would do such a thing. Where reasons were stated these included:
a) AoS is smelly;
b) miniatures should be kept in their virgin state;
c) miniatures belong to certain games and should be used for those games rather than in games for which the minis are unsuitable.
One respondent went so far as to say that metal conversions are "junk" - an opinion that would consign many Golden Demon winners and numerous pages of 'Eavy Metal to the bin.
Now, hobby gatekeeping is generally a twattish thing to do (and my ill-fated stint as moderator proved that I was an inept gatekeeper), but I can't help but feel these kinds of "that belongs in a museum!" type responses miss the point altogether.
So I thought I'd just spell out my opinion: converting tyranids for use in AoS is Oldhammer as fuck.
Oldhammer is about creativity, it's not about slavishly adhering to someone else's intellectual property. I don't know much about the world of Age of Sigmar, but if someone wants to make it their own by adding in giant bugs, then good on them!
Oldhammer is not about the purity of one particular edition of a game, nor is it about restricting yourself to miniatures from a particular era (even if it is shaped by a particular aesthetic sensibility). It's about bringing new life to old forms, whether that be playing old editions with new miniatures, playing new games with old miniatures, or anything in between.
Oldhammer is not about venerating old miniatures as some kind of 80s/early 90s relics. It's about bringing them to life, playing games and finding new stories to tell. If that means converting old lead to create something new, then I salute you.
What was that I said about gatekeeping being twattish? Ah well. Oldhammer is creativity and storytelling or it is nothing. Something like that anyway...
But wait, there's more!
Funnily enough the concept itself sent me down a corridor of nostalgia. When I was a teenager, I was pretty fanatical about coming up with new rules and concepts. And one of the ideas I was developing around the time I first dropped out of the hobby was - you guessed it - a Tyranid army list for Warhammer Fantasy Battle. A genestealer cult in the court of an Elector Count, perhaps? Spores of death falling from the skies? Ripper swarms in the sewers?
My friends shot the idea down immediately: it didn't fit with canon, I was told. And anyway, there was no way that the Warhammer World would survive such an infestation. Hormogaunts could overwhelm the planet within weeks, rapidly reproducing until there was nothing else left. Maybe they were right, but even then I kind of resented the idea that the only stories worth telling were the ones that Games Workshop had already told. Partly it was just that the absence of an insectoid race in Warhammer Fantasy seemed like a gap worth filling, but also it was the sheer apocalyptic horror of the whole thing... And such apocalyptic visions and prophecies saturate the consciousness of the medieval and renaissance societies that Warhammer plays around with.
And as Thantsants pointed out, how else would you explain what's going on in Hieronymous Bosch (take, for example, The Temptation of St Anthony)?
Look up there - death from the skies...
Interesting post, which I enjoyed reading. The line that leapt out at me was "Oldhammer is about creativity, it's not about slavishly adhering to someone else's intellectual property." Which I have to question... surely after second edition when rigid army lists and the Warhammer world was introduced, that's precisely what happened to Warhammer? It's certainly the reason I gave up with Warhammer at the time ( that and the change in sculpting style of Citadel minis). As for AOS, I'm not that interested in it, but I've seen amazing and original conversions for it using current GW models as well as other figures which are to my mind are very Oldhammer in spirit. Either way a Tyranid type army in Warhammer would be cool, I'd be tempted to use more demonic figures, rather than official Tyranid models.
ReplyDeleteWell I think you've put your finger on the problem, which is that the word Oldhammer itself (which we're stuck with now!) is kind of misleading on this score. It implies that we're playing as they did in the 80s, but you'd have to have some serious rose-tinted spectacles not to realise that the general experience was not one of free-form narrative play, and that the rot of tournament-type fixed lists and competitive list-building set in fairly early. What I'm more interested in - and what has been my experience of Bring Out Your Lead, other oldhammer gatherings, and games with people in the community - has been something a lot more freeform, using the old rules as a toolkit. Hence fielding a gnome army and a fimir army even though 3rd edition Warhammer Armies doesn't really offer the capacity for full armies of this type. And also playing all kinds of warband games with mixed gaggles of creatures.
DeleteSo to sum up - I'm not saying that the 80s and early 90s were golden times of creative open play; its more that there we can recover elements in the aesthetic and approach from that era (e.g. having a GM, narrative-led scenarios) that can enable creative open play today.
oh, and I'd be interested in hearing what it was about the change in sculpting style back then that put you off!
DeleteYes, at least now we can cherry pick the good bits of the 80s (Iron Maiden and Forces of Fantasy) and leave the dross out (Mullets and slavish adherence to army lists). Hmm, sculpting styles.... about 1985 Citadel changed to a much more cartoony characatured style. I think the first sculpts to exhibit this were Aly Morrison's Hobgoblins and High Elves perhaps..at the time I hated them, but over the last year I've collected quite a few and really like them. This was followed by the change to slotta bases and figures developing massive hands and feet which really put me off fantasy figures from Citadel. I've mellowed considerably and have even recently bought the odd post slotta Chaos warrior. What I'm really enjoying is seeing armies like Thansants' burgeoning chaos horde utilising a huge range of figures from 70s RAL Partha to Reaper Bones.... That's Oldhammer to me.
DeleteYes, I don't want to give him a bit head, but what he's doing really hits the spot, I love that whole bricolage of concepts and minis to create something completely new. Helps that the bugger seems to live on top of a lead mine and is a bloody good painter.
DeleteAw you guys! No seriously carry on - my head can take it ;)
ReplyDeleteI must admit I do like the idea of Tyranids (or similar) in a fantasy setting although I did feel a slight pang of something on seeing that post - but that was just base jealousy at the sight of such a haul in someone else's hands rather than the new owner's intentions towards it! I wonder how much the green-eyed monster was behind a lot of those "AOS is smelly" responses XD
Your idea of a Genestealer Cult in an Elector Count's court sounds pretty awesome and that (plot twist!) by extension the Warhammer world is just another backwater, primitive planet in the Rogue Trader universe! Shame you never got to realise it - We should definitely game it some time. I have the Tyranids, Genestealer Cult and a castle to defend if needs be! I can kind of see where your mates were coming from though but not their absolute refusal to entertain the idea. Maybe they thought you were suggesting an alternative and earlier version of the End Times? ;) Not saying you didn't have one, but I think I'd want a plausible reason for the whole world not being consumed in a matter of weeks, as would surely happen if you go by the usual Tyranid modus operandi - even the craziest fantasy/sci fi worlds need coherent rules to make them believable. I wonder whether you could make the presence of the Chaos Wastes at the poles of the planet and the prevalence of magic a factor in clouding the Tyranid Hive Mind's ability to bring to bear the huge resources of the rest of the Hive Fleet to harvest the world. That would perhaps give the inhabitants a chance to fight off a more limited excursion? Or maybe I'm just overthinking what should just be a fun mash up!
Me and Paul played out a similar Genestealer Cult game a while back although it was set on a world we made up in the RT universe and involved a Pirate Raid on a primitive Agri-world coming a cropper when they were suddenly confronted with Genestealers. One thing to bear in mind is balance - even with the presence of modern weaponry, I put a few too many Genestealers on the table much to Paul's horror! https://teasgettingcold.blogspot.com/2013/10/brothers-in-four-arms.html
As for gatekeeping and what is Oldhammer - I'm pretty much done with all that. These days I'm just doing what brings me pleasure and I guess the Chaos Army you mention is a good example. I'm more twisting the models I have to fit the references I want to include in the army's background and enjoying the creative process! Mind you I do like indulging in a bit of archeogaming too - I wasn't joking about those Nick Lund wolf riders for our Dolgan Raiders game ;)
I'll need to have more of a think about this genestealer thing. As I said, I think part of my teenage logic was quite simply "there is a gap in the warhammer world, and that gap is insectoids". Because I was never that into 40k, I saw the Tyranid models and concepts as cool stuff to plunder without getting into the nitty gritty of their background.
DeleteBut yes, there'd have to be more thought given to it than simply plonking a handful of genestealers down and having them wipe everything out. I suspect that the presence of chaos is exactly the limiting factor - and wouldn't it be a turn out for the books if chaos was actually what saved the world?
As for archaeogaming - I mean, I started off wanting to do McDeath so I'm hardly averse. But the trouble is I can't afford it at today's prices! And as for the Dolgans specifically, the models that were on the Dolgan side for that seemed to be literally any old human warriors, a total hodge-podge. So you're kind of faced with a choice there: you can either use the models they included in the army deal, or you can have a steppe-themed army - you can't do both!
Yeah - I quite liked that little irony - Chaos or at least the Slann's failure to maintain their warp gates properly being the only thing keeping the Warhammer world alive. An abandoned Genestealer Cult might be a good way to go, never able to become fully fledged because of the efforts of Witchfinders, Knightly Orders and the general watchfulness within the Empire for anything resembling the taint of Chaos and cut off from the rest of the Tyranid Hive Mind by the white noise of the Chaos Wastes. Perhaps they've only raised a few purestrain Genestealers and the Patriarch is on his last legs. Perhaps they've duped a Chaos Cult in to following their cause (always liked the link between Chaos and Genestealer Cults in RT!) or they've recruited their own mob of conspiracy theory obsessed peasants, who form the bulk of their forces. Perhaps the Magus is getting desperate and has discovered some Mcguffin that'll allow him to boost their psychic signal and attract the attention of a passing Hive Fleet in a last ditch attempt to fulfil their purpose before the brood wastes away entirely. You could then either nerf the Genestealer stats as they've become decadent and weakened by the state of affairs or just have fewer on the table.
DeleteIt'd be cool to see a larger range of Tyranid troops though - maybe a smaller ship from a Hive Fleet crash lands somewhere in the Empire after a completely unconnected space battle happens in orbit? The surviving Tyranids are much reduced in numbers, can't call on their usual near infinite reinforcements and revert to their normal behaviour - attack and eat the nearest bio-material! As long as your Empire guys have a defensive position and a bit of artillery to deal with the bigger bugs it should be pretty fun!
Yeah - archeogaming is crazy expensive now and a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine when I can achieve it. Some of those army deals do seem a bit random though! Looking forward to seeing your Steppe army at BOYL!